Namaste Book Club's Blog


November 08, 2009

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(Nov 08-17:54) nancy has joined.
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(Nov 08-18:00) ashdyogi has joined.
(Nov 08-18:00) ashdyogi: haha
(Nov 08-18:01) ashdyogi:  there it is i forgot hot to get to it
(Nov 08-18:01) Jenny: hi ashley and nancy!
(Nov 08-18:01) nancy: awesome
(Nov 08-18:01) IntegralHack has joined.
(Nov 08-18:01) ashdyogi: hello
(Nov 08-18:01) nancy: they moved it so it was not where it used to be
(Nov 08-18:01) nancy: Matt… you made it 🙂
(Nov 08-18:01) IntegralHack: Yep!
(Nov 08-18:01) nancy: the other chat ap doesn’t allow us to do transcripts
(Nov 08-18:01) IntegralHack: thanks
(Nov 08-18:01) nancy: this one has sound too
(Nov 08-18:01) <nancy> sent sound: arrow-flying
(Nov 08-18:01) Kris has joined.
(Nov 08-18:02) whollyyoga has joined.
(Nov 08-18:02) nancy: hey kris
(Nov 08-18:02) nancy: andre
(Nov 08-18:02) Jenny: hi all!
(Nov 08-18:02) ashdyogi: i love this book btw
(Nov 08-18:02) Kris: Hi to everyone
(Nov 08-18:02) whollyyoga: hi nancy
(Nov 08-18:02) Jenny: me too!
(Nov 08-18:02) whollyyoga: hey everyone
(Nov 08-18:02) ashdyogi: sometimes you read things right when you need them the most
(Nov 08-18:02) Jenny: hi andre
(Nov 08-18:02) ashdyogi: hey dre
(Nov 08-18:02) Jenny: agreed ash
(Nov 08-18:03) Jessica has joined.
(Nov 08-18:03) nancy: i love this book too
(Nov 08-18:03) nancy: so straight forward
(Nov 08-18:03) whollyyoga: haven’t read the book but thoought I ‘d show anyway since it has been a while
(Nov 08-18:03) nancy has left.
(Nov 08-18:03) ashdyogi: yea i think it has something to do with a chick writting it too. lol
(Nov 08-18:03) Jenny: yeah her writing is very accessible, i thought. very down to earth.
(Nov 08-18:03) IntegralHack: I’m a poor meditator, so I like it too.
(Nov 08-18:03) ashdyogi: yea its very straight forward
(Nov 08-18:03) nancy has joined.
(Nov 08-18:04) nancy: sorry
(Nov 08-18:04) nancy: accidentally hung up w/ the chat
(Nov 08-18:04) ashdyogi: did you read the thing about the horses?
(Nov 08-18:04) bob has joined.
(Nov 08-18:04) IntegralHack: thank god another guy is here. Hi Bob!
(Nov 08-18:04) bob: Hi everyone
(Nov 08-18:04) ashdyogi: there are 3 dre bob and you matt
(Nov 08-18:05) Kris: Have to tell you about buying the book – was at the bookstore on Fri – bought the wrong book.   Was at another bookstore on Sat – bought another Pema book – 0 for 2!  Finally got it right today!
(Nov 08-18:05) nancy: IH, bob is @bobweisenberg and @whollyyoga is Andre (male too 🙂 )
(Nov 08-18:05) IntegralHack: ‘scuse me, Andre.
(Nov 08-18:05) nancy: so easy to do kris she has a lot
(Nov 08-18:05) Kris: Nice that it is a series of short talks – easy to pick up and digest in pieces
(Nov 08-18:05) Jenny: i agree kris.
(Nov 08-18:05) ashdyogi: yea i like that too..
(Nov 08-18:06) Jenny: i don’t feel overwhelmed like there’s so very much to process after each chapter
(Nov 08-18:06) Jenny: but there’s definitely stuff to process!
(Nov 08-18:06) nancy: i haven’t had time to watch the link bob shared which has her back story, right?
(Nov 08-18:06) Kris: I think if they were longer – might be too much
(Nov 08-18:06) ashdyogi: yea i really like how she talks about who you are now not who you want to be
(Nov 08-18:07) ashdyogi: i havent had time to watch that either
(Nov 08-18:07) nancy: right ash… she says live to your true nature and not what you aspire to be
(Nov 08-18:07) Jenny: ash i loved that. particularly she really shined a light on my approach to meditation
(Nov 08-18:07) nancy: although sometimes they are the same, no?
(Nov 08-18:07) Kris: She is also cover story on current Shambala Sun
(Nov 08-18:07) whollyyoga: no problem matt
(Nov 08-18:07) IntegralHack: How about that crazy wisdom lineage (Trungpa & company)?
(Nov 08-18:07) nancy: i also liked the horse analogy ash
(Nov 08-18:07) ashdyogi: i have a big prob with that.. im the type of person that when i meditate or whatever  i want to change
(Nov 08-18:07) ashdyogi: i dont realize that i am changing and just not seeing it
(Nov 08-18:07) bob: Pema’s real name was Deirdre Blomfield-Brown
(Nov 08-18:07) nancy: yea, Matt the thing about the murder
(Nov 08-18:07) nancy: murderer
(Nov 08-18:08) ashdyogi: yep thats what i was thinking jenn
(Nov 08-18:08) Kris: I think it all boils down to being able to be with ourselves free of judgement – then eventually to be with others free of judgement
(Nov 08-18:08) ashdyogi: yea the murder thing and the thing about the hippies
(Nov 08-18:08) ashdyogi: i had to giggle
(Nov 08-18:08) nancy: right… the dirty hippies
(Nov 08-18:08) ashdyogi: hippies not taking things serious imagine that.. lol..
(Nov 08-18:09) Jenny: i am definitely one who has always thought i was meditating to “change” or “get better”
(Nov 08-18:09) IntegralHack: yes. I appreciate that Trungpa was a great teacher of meditation, concentration, etc., but I think I would go elsewhere for ethical teachings.
(Nov 08-18:09) Jenny: i never ever once thought of it as befriending myself
(Nov 08-18:09) Kris has left.
(Nov 08-18:09) ashdyogi: lol matt
(Nov 08-18:09) Jenny: re: pema’s past. has anyone youtubed her interview with bill moyers?
(Nov 08-18:09) nancy: it makes sense tho and i liked that they were human
(Nov 08-18:09) Jenny: if not, it is VERY worth watching
(Nov 08-18:09) nancy: not perfect
(Nov 08-18:09) ashdyogi: its the just ‘being’ thing that i have a hard time with myself
(Nov 08-18:09) nancy: we’ll have to tweet that link J
(Nov 08-18:10) Jenny: one of the things that i love so much about Pema is how REAL she is. you never get the impression that she’s perfected anything
(Nov 08-18:10) Jenny: i will certainly do so nancy
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(Nov 08-18:10) nancy: that’s what i liked about her lineage too… they were hardly perfect either
(Nov 08-18:10) Kris: Oops – I’m back
(Nov 08-18:10) nancy: and it’s nice to hear that b/c sometimes you think of monks as absolving themselves of those kind of thoughts, kwim?
(Nov 08-18:11) Jenny: exactly
(Nov 08-18:11) IntegralHack: I do like the point about not being perfect and the lineage was a good example.
(Nov 08-18:11) Jenny: and she makes no apologies for not being perfect or “enlightened”
(Nov 08-18:11) nancy has left.
(Nov 08-18:11) ashdyogi: yea that they are perfect.. usually people that go on these ‘journeys’ have had soemthing major happen to them
(Nov 08-18:11) bob: There’s a big difference between accepting weakness and accepting abuse, drunkenness and womanizing
(Nov 08-18:11) IntegralHack: right, bob.
(Nov 08-18:12) nancy has joined.
(Nov 08-18:12) nancy: jenny… can you keep the transcript going?
(Nov 08-18:12) Jenny: i’m on it
(Nov 08-18:12) IntegralHack: and Trungpa could be abusive the stories are accurate.
(Nov 08-18:12) nancy: new folks are coming and i need to log off and send the ap to make sure they can get here
(Nov 08-18:12) Kris: I like to think of my loved ones that have passed away being able to look down and see everything I do – but completely free of judgement – just pure love.  And then wonder if that is possible during our life on earth – just love
(Nov 08-18:12) nancy: back and forth and it keeps logging me off
(Nov 08-18:12) IntegralHack: (if the stories are accurate, I meant.)
(Nov 08-18:12) bob: I would have a hard learning from a  spiritual teacher whose life and ethics I couldn’t respect
(Nov 08-18:13) nancy: bob i wondered about that again with the murderer thing
(Nov 08-18:13) Jenny: i do too, kris. i use a metephor by Thich Nhat Hanh. he talks about ancestors being in the rain
(Nov 08-18:14) Kris: I’ll have to look for that Jenny – haven’t run across that one
(Nov 08-18:14) ashdyogi: sometimes the best people are the ones that have done the worst things
(Nov 08-18:14) bob: I think guru followers like Pema get so attached to their guru that they can’t see them clearly anymore, so they rationalize rather than see the truth
(Nov 08-18:14) ashdyogi: i dont agree with all that murder stuff but i do think that people can change
(Nov 08-18:15) Jenny: kris, i can’t remember what book it was in, but i know he talks of it in more than one. anytime he talks about interbeing and how w/o clouds, no rain, no rain = no trees, no trees =  no book you’re rdg. etc etc
(Nov 08-18:15) ashdyogi: guru groupies thats what those are bob
(Nov 08-18:15) nancy: but bob do you really think that’s true b/c she calls some of her lineage drunks and stuff like that… hardly praising them
(Nov 08-18:15) Kris: Jenny – bet I can google it
(Nov 08-18:15) Jenny: how far back was the lineage going? was it in modern times with the murderer? i was under the impression it was a long time in history ago
(Nov 08-18:15) bob: Well yes ash, if it’s in the past.  But if the person is still abusing women in the present, then they can’t be “the best people” .
(Nov 08-18:16) ashdyogi: yes i agree with that.. i thought that was how they use to be not were at the presnet
(Nov 08-18:16) Kris: When I read that lineage part, I didn’t see her praising them, just using it as an example – kind of thought she felt it was funny in a way
(Nov 08-18:17) ashdyogi: i agree with that too Kris
(Nov 08-18:17) bob: Nancy, I think she was praising them–for being real and for being great spiritual teachers in spite of their terrible failures as human beings
(Nov 08-18:17) Jenny: i agree with you kris. i just thought it was to highlight how even the “worst horse” can come to a place of great understanding and truth
(Nov 08-18:17) IntegralHack: I think it’s possible to appreciate someone to an extent for their abilities (Trungpa was supposedly amazing in many regards), but I couldn’t accept him as a guru either
(Nov 08-18:18) nancy: Matt.. we just read Hatha Yoga Pradikipa and there was  a lot of guru ness in it that we all had trouble with
(Nov 08-18:18) IntegralHack: I admire Bill Clinton in many ways, but I wouldn’t hire him to manage interns.
(Nov 08-18:18) nancy: so caveat that many of us are not guru-type folks either…
(Nov 08-18:18) nancy: LOL
(Nov 08-18:18) Jenny: we’ve talked about gurus here before, and i think i would have a hard time accepting anyONE as  guru myself. no matter who they were, what they did.
(Nov 08-18:18) ashdyogi: lol matt
(Nov 08-18:18) bob: Hate to be all Judeo-Christian about this, but you can start to understand why the idea of redemption is important and why it requires acknowledgment as a first step
(Nov 08-18:18) ashdyogi: lol when i was on my retreat there was a girl that was in a cult there
(Nov 08-18:19) nancy: but i think what she she is saying is that you accept yourself (and others/gurus) for who they are and that is who they/you are supposed to be
(Nov 08-18:19) nancy: like we can learn from all the warts and stuff maybe?
(Nov 08-18:19) Jenny: i agree nancy.
(Nov 08-18:19) ashdyogi: that was weird.. she was still all into it when we went to hippie mountain.. these ‘guru groupies’ get soo brainwasheed
(Nov 08-18:19) Kris: There’s the non-judgement
(Nov 08-18:19) Jenny: another way of shedding these perceptions that we place on people and, again, coming to truth
(Nov 08-18:19) bob: I get off the boat when they start using Buddhist philosophy itself to justify hurting others
(Nov 08-18:20) IntegralHack: gotcha re: gurus. One thing I appreciate about Surya Das is that he kind of calls it out: saying that gurus are are from an older time/culture and not really appropriate for the West.
(Nov 08-18:20) nancy: did you think she was doing that bob
(Nov 08-18:20) bob: Yes, but I liked most of the book
(Nov 08-18:20) whollyyoga: love has to be at htecenter of it all no? 2 cents from non book reader
(Nov 08-18:20) nancy: i didn’t read that into it… i didn’t think she was saying it was ok to be a murderer and a drunk
(Nov 08-18:20) IntegralHack: Yeah, Bob, it’s not even a good application of Buddhist fundamentals.
(Nov 08-18:21) Jenny: i still don’t think her intention was to justify their behavior though
(Nov 08-18:21) whollyyoga: love of the other before self I mean
(Nov 08-18:21) ashdyogi: yea i wasnt reading it for the fundmental parts more the mediatation stuff
(Nov 08-18:21) IntegralHack: No, I think Pema is alright, but the lineage makes me a bit guarded.
(Nov 08-18:21) Kris: Yes Andre – even though you didn’t read it – you’ve got the idea of it
(Nov 08-18:21) bob: I think Pema has to go to great mental links to continue to venerate a jerk like Trungpa
(Nov 08-18:22) ashdyogi: kind of helps me put my little stuff in to perspective
(Nov 08-18:22) whollyyoga: I just read the bill moyer interview
(Nov 08-18:22) IntegralHack: I do think it is possible there was “more than one” Trungpa, Bob. I’m not justifying it, but Pema could have seen “Eve White.”
(Nov 08-18:22) Jenny: but is she venerating Trungpa and HIS being, or is she venerating his message, which is beautiful despite his flaws?
(Nov 08-18:23) Jenny: severe as those flaws may be
(Nov 08-18:23) nancy: what is the story w/ trungpa… all i know is what she wrote about.
(Nov 08-18:23) bob: I’m not saying she can’t still praise him for his meditation teaching and being good to her.
(Nov 08-18:24) whollyyoga: what did he do to her?
(Nov 08-18:24) Kris: Nancy – wondering that too – didn’t get that from the reading
(Nov 08-18:24) nancy: i’m new to this group of newer Buddhists so not sure of their backstory
(Nov 08-18:24) bob: This book was written in 1991.  It could be that she came to terms with his drunkeness, emotional abuse and womanizing later.
(Nov 08-18:25) IntegralHack: Trungpa died–essentially–of alcoholism. He drove his car into a building while drunk. He required the poet W.S Merwin and his girlfriend to strip naked at a “spirited” 1970s event even though they were protesting.
(Nov 08-18:25) IntegralHack: He died of cirrhosis of the liver, not because of his driving – to be clear.
(Nov 08-18:25) nancy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chögyam_Trungpa
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(Nov 08-18:26) bob: I haven’t had time to study her history over the last 20 years.  I like her and I dislike Trungpa.
(Nov 08-18:26) Kris: Wow – interesting
(Nov 08-18:26) nancy: hey donna… glad you could get here… sorry for the confusion
(Nov 08-18:26) Donna_Freeman has left.
(Nov 08-18:26) IntegralHack: I feel the same way, Bob, Jenny.
(Nov 08-18:26) Donna_Freeman has joined.
(Nov 08-18:27) IntegralHack: But enough about Trungpa and Clinton.
(Nov 08-18:27) ashdyogi: wow matt you know your stuff dont you
(Nov 08-18:27) IntegralHack: Like I told you, Ash, I’m old!
(Nov 08-18:28) whollyyoga: hi donna
(Nov 08-18:28) bob: But I like most of her teachings.  I don’t know enough to criticize her relationship with Trungpa.  Need more research.  I’m pretty sure he’s one of the biggest Buddhist jerks in history, though.  Anyone know any differently?
(Nov 08-18:28) Jenny: yes i agree- despite our opinions of gurus and Trungpa, let’s move on to the book
(Nov 08-18:28) Donna_Freeman: Hey there guys, I’ll listen for a bit and see where we are in this conversation
(Nov 08-18:28) ashdyogi: lol whatever
(Nov 08-18:28) whollyyoga: I think gurus can be a dangerous thing be we can forget that they are human and have human flaws….
(Nov 08-18:28) bob: Just finished trashing Trungpa.  Didn’t miss much.
(Nov 08-18:29) whollyyoga: no matter how enlighteded they might be
(Nov 08-18:29) Jenny: lol bob
(Nov 08-18:29) nancy: so what about her talks did you guys like, guru veneration aside
(Nov 08-18:29) IntegralHack: Well, done, Bob.
(Nov 08-18:29) bob: Anyone have any dirt on Pema?
(Nov 08-18:29) whollyyoga: lol
(Nov 08-18:29) Donna_Freeman: lol
(Nov 08-18:29) IntegralHack: Bob, you kill me. lol.
(Nov 08-18:29) Jenny: lolol
(Nov 08-18:30) ashdyogi: see i was thinking all monks are holy and stuff
(Nov 08-18:30) IntegralHack: I heard she moonlights as a pole dancer.
(Nov 08-18:30) ashdyogi: no drinking or women or anything
(Nov 08-18:30) Donna_Freeman: You guys are so irreverent – love it
(Nov 08-18:30) Jenny: lol by the time this convo is finished we’re gonna have quite the rumor mill running about pema!
(Nov 08-18:30) ashdyogi: gee guess i was wrong on that one
(Nov 08-18:30) nancy: omg… let the fun begin!
(Nov 08-18:30) Jenny: we’ll test our influence with this one
(Nov 08-18:30) whollyyoga: ash holy really just means becoming whole
(Nov 08-18:30) nancy: it says she became a Buddhist nun after her second divorce
(Nov 08-18:30) bob: I like her simple focus on the present moment and on absolute self acceptance.  Also the four reminders at the end, paricularly the shortness of life.
(Nov 08-18:31) ashdyogi: yea she dances in lawton at the dragon
(Nov 08-18:31) whollyyoga: emphasis on the becoming
(Nov 08-18:31) Jenny: but seriously…. i think my favorite part in the book so far was just the message of “come as you are” and getting rid of the need to change
(Nov 08-18:31) nancy: bob.. what page are the four reminders at the end.  or have you read the whole book already?
(Nov 08-18:31) nancy: yes the come as you are is VERY similar to come to the mat with what you have of Desikachar
(Nov 08-18:31) Donna_Freeman: I also appreciate her focus on the now, living  in the present. Each chapter is a short sweet message to contemplate for the rest of the day
(Nov 08-18:32) bob: Very last chapter
(Nov 08-18:32) Jenny: nancy i drew that same comparison
(Nov 08-18:32) Donna_Freeman: Bob’s a keener
(Nov 08-18:32) Jenny: “starting point”
(Nov 08-18:32) bob: Just so you’re not too impressed, I just read it myself an hour ago
(Nov 08-18:32) Jenny: something about the way she writes though, i am finding it touching me on a deeper level
(Nov 08-18:32) nancy: donna i totally agree
(Nov 08-18:33) ashdyogi: i agree with you too jenn
(Nov 08-18:33) Donna_Freeman: I think she shares her personal experiences and therefore we connect with her as she discovers herself
(Nov 08-18:33) ashdyogi: all of you actuallly
(Nov 08-18:33) bob: her writing is warm and direct and totally free of all the trapping of her exalted status and in-depth training in Tibetan ritual
(Nov 08-18:33) Kris: I also like the use of stories and analogies – makes the reading easy and interesting
(Nov 08-18:33) ashdyogi: agreed kris
(Nov 08-18:33) Jenny: i agree donna and kris.
(Nov 08-18:33) nancy: i like that she’s not preachy and she sounds like she struggles too which is very heartening for those of us beginning a meditation practice
(Nov 08-18:34) Donna_Freeman: She takes the mystery out of a Tibetan retreat and makes it doable
(Nov 08-18:34) Jenny: i think it is that attitude i described before, of being flawed and non apologetic, that is what draws me in
(Nov 08-18:34) bob: She writes about tricky stuff in plain English and with straight-forward intellect
(Nov 08-18:34) Jenny: and being honest about the times she gets angry
(Nov 08-18:35) Kris: Gives me the inspiration to root for muself and others rather than be critical
(Nov 08-18:35) Jenny: in her bill moyers interview (i’ll tweet the link momentarily) and in other youtube talks you can find, she gives really great teachings
(Nov 08-18:35) ashdyogi: ugh i have to go.. the man cant cook alone.. this requires wine
(Nov 08-18:35) ashdyogi: sorry
(Nov 08-18:35) nancy: lol
(Nov 08-18:35) IntegralHack: Go get ’em, Ash!
(Nov 08-18:35) Jenny: thanks for joining in for a bit ash!
(Nov 08-18:35) bob: As much as I like this, everytime I read a Buddhist author I’m reminded of why I prefer Yoga
(Nov 08-18:35) ashdyogi: its freaking stir fry come on really???  lol
(Nov 08-18:35) ashdyogi: try to be back lol
(Nov 08-18:36) whollyyoga: bye ash
(Nov 08-18:36) ashdyogi has left.
(Nov 08-18:36) IntegralHack: I really can’t separate Yoga and Buddhism, although others would consider this sacrilege.
(Nov 08-18:36) Donna_Freeman: One part of the book that I’ve loved is the Buddhist story of the four horses and how it doenst’ matter what kind of horse you are
(Nov 08-18:36) bob: They definitely have the very same roots
(Nov 08-18:37) nancy: i think of them a lot together too Matt b/c i think in the long run they have similar goals…
(Nov 08-18:37) nancy: and that’s part of the reason we wanted to do the meditation month thing and this book
(Nov 08-18:37) Jenny: it’s interesting for me, because i love asana but i relate more to buddhist philosophy
(Nov 08-18:38) IntegralHack: Exactly, Nancy. Not to switch, but in the Wisdom of Yoga (Stephen Cope) there is an excellent appendix comparing Buddhism and Yoga (Pantanjali)
(Nov 08-18:38) nancy: And there are lots of yogis who are going the way of Buddhism in their practices like TIas Little
(Nov 08-18:38) nancy: oh… Matt.. Bob’s gonna love that
(Nov 08-18:38) IntegralHack: Buddha was a yogi.
(Nov 08-18:39) bob: Yes that’s good in Cope.
(Nov 08-18:40) nancy: I think i’m going to have to get that book.. cope one.  he comes up a lot
(Nov 08-18:40) bob: I would put it this way.  Both have the same content.  But Yoga philosophy is 90% wonder of the universe and 10% overcoming suffering,  Buddhism is the opposite
(Nov 08-18:40) Jenny: i’ve heard a lot of people talk about that cope book too nancy
(Nov 08-18:40) Jenny: and for me, overcoming suffering is where i tend to need the work
(Nov 08-18:41) bob: The one you want, tho, is “Yoga and the Quest for the True Self
(Nov 08-18:41) Jenny: so maybe that is why i preefer that philosophy
(Nov 08-18:41) Jenny: prefer*
(Nov 08-18:41) IntegralHack: That’s good too, Bob.
(Nov 08-18:41) Kris: Bob – how do you feel about tantric philosophy
(Nov 08-18:41) nancy: but the way pema’s talking about it, it is VERY yogic…
(Nov 08-18:41) IntegralHack: Yes, Jenny. I think it all about where a person “is.”
(Nov 08-18:42) bob: I need to overcome suffering, too.  I prefer to do it partly with a steady blast of wonder and awe at the universe OUTSIDE myself.
(Nov 08-18:42) nancy: she is talking about accepting who you are and i think that is part of yoga too…even if it takes time w/ a practice to get there
(Nov 08-18:42) IntegralHack: But we’re all different–which is part of Pema’s message.
(Nov 08-18:43) Jenny: i agree nancy. the msg is essentially the same
(Nov 08-18:43) bob: Yes, that’s why I like Pema more than most Buddhist writers.  She does talk about amazement alot in this book.
(Nov 08-18:44) Jenny: i always felt like Thich Nhat Hanh did the same, bob. although he doesn’t come from the shambala lineage
(Nov 08-18:44) nancy: amazement?  like amazement that you can be flawed but still good?
(Nov 08-18:44) Kris: Now that I have a collection of 3 Pema books (accidentally) I look forward to them all
(Nov 08-18:44) IntegralHack: Yep, I’ve hurt myself on the mat as an egoic, self-loathing arsehole. I think the “aggression” was an interesting thing she noted.
(Nov 08-18:45) nancy: she did talk about aggression didn’t she?
(Nov 08-18:45) IntegralHack: yes.
(Nov 08-18:45) Donna_Freeman: Sorry had to step out and help my son with Science homework – where are we
(Nov 08-18:45) bob: Kris, regarding Tantra.  I love the philosophy of Tantra, which is that everything is divine if we just open our eyes to it.  I do not care for the overly detailed Tantric rituals
(Nov 08-18:45) Kris: Seems like Ticht Nhat Hanh and Pema are both so popular – maybe because they are both so easy to relate to
(Nov 08-18:45) nancy: donna we’re talking about how Pema’s approach is very yogic
(Nov 08-18:45) Kris: Thanks for the answer Bob
(Nov 08-18:45) nancy: it makes sense kris b/c again we’re talking about esoteric ideas that can be wildly hard to grasp a western mind around
(Nov 08-18:46) IntegralHack: There are also so many schools and sects in Buddhism, Bob, that it is a pretty big target.
(Nov 08-18:46) nancy: they don’t make it seem taht way
(Nov 08-18:46) nancy: that
(Nov 08-18:46) Jenny: TNH is very relatable to me, kris. absolutely.
(Nov 08-18:47) Jenny: there’s so much simplicity in this msg. yes nancy, i agree with you
(Nov 08-18:47) Kris: Must admit – have used his breathing meditations and quotes, but never really read his works – I need to do that
(Nov 08-18:47) bob: Yes, IH.  It’s difficult to say anything about either Yoga or Buddhism as a whole.
(Nov 08-18:47) Jenny: TNH’s readings have really changed the way i think.
(Nov 08-18:48) Kris: Jenny – any recommendation for a first book to get from TNH?
(Nov 08-18:48) bob: I’ve got to read some TNH, too.  What should I read?
(Nov 08-18:48) Jenny: i came upon them at a time when i needed them most. between him, and more recently Pema, these two have really helped me figure out what is most true for me and what i truly believe and who i truly am
(Nov 08-18:48) Jenny: i’ve read so many of them… let me think of my favorites
(Nov 08-18:48) nancy: again I say that one of the things i loved about this book so far is that Pema talks about meditation etc. in a way that is so accepting of her own failures
(Nov 08-18:49) IntegralHack: One thing I don’t like about yoga or Buddhism is fundamentalism–I respect tradition, but not jettisoning skepticism or new ideas.
(Nov 08-18:49) Jenny: btw: i tweeted a link to the interview (@evvashtangi)
(Nov 08-18:49) nancy: in the age of ego it’s really
(Nov 08-18:49) nancy: refreshing
(Nov 08-18:49) bob: Late in the book, Pema urges picking one boat and sticking to it.  My boat, even though I’m reading widely, is the Yoga of the three primary ancient texts
(Nov 08-18:49) nancy: agree Matt.. .. this is a common thread among us
(Nov 08-18:50) whollyyoga: what are the other 2 bob
(Nov 08-18:50) Kris: Nancy – is that a TNH book you reference
(Nov 08-18:50) Donna_Freeman: I appreciate the story of how difficult it was and she felt like a fraud but kept trying. It helps me to keep trying when thigns don’t fall into place smoothy or work out the way I want them to
(Nov 08-18:50) nancy: kris what do you mean?
(Nov 08-18:50) IntegralHack: Curious too, Bob.
(Nov 08-18:50) nancy: donna that was exactly what i was talking about … that reference
(Nov 08-18:50) Kris: Sorry – thought your comment may have been a title!
(Nov 08-18:51) bob: And unlike many tradtionalists, I embrace diversity and Yoga in all its forms.  Why?  Partly because the ancient texts do that!
(Nov 08-18:51) nancy: oh no.. just hit return before i finished
(Nov 08-18:51) Kris: In the age of ego – sounded like may have been a book…
(Nov 08-18:51) bob: Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita
(Nov 08-18:51) nancy: hmm.. will have to remember that Kris 😉  nope just words from my tired head
(Nov 08-18:52) nancy: I was thinking about ego in the sense that we are all taught in the 21st century to strive for perfection and she acknowledges that she’s not
(Nov 08-18:52) IntegralHack: Upanishads are many many volumes. Are you reading a certain edition?
(Nov 08-18:52) nancy: perfect and i really liked that.
(Nov 08-18:52) bob: Yes. I love that Pema has been through so much pain and struggle in her life and has come out so whole through her spirituality.  That’s inspiring.
(Nov 08-18:52) Jenny: okay for reading try: You Are Here, Going Home: Jesus and Buddha as brothers, and Being Peace, to start
(Nov 08-18:52) Donna_Freeman: I appreciate that she accepts herself and allows her imperfections to be
(Nov 08-18:53) bob: Except for the pole dancing , of course.
(Nov 08-18:53) Jenny: those are by TNH
(Nov 08-18:53) Kris: Thanks Jenny
(Nov 08-18:53) IntegralHack: She has been married twice–this is true. Pole dancing–not.
(Nov 08-18:53) Donna_Freeman: Will try to find those and add them to my reading list – thx Jenny
(Nov 08-18:53) IntegralHack: As far as I know.
(Nov 08-18:53) nancy: LOL on th epole dancing
(Nov 08-18:53) nancy: pole dancing
(Nov 08-18:53) nancy: yes, married two times… and is still a student and you really feel that in her writing
(Nov 08-18:53) Jenny: no problem!
(Nov 08-18:54) nancy: it’s not like she’s writing as an “i know it all ” type, but here’s what’s helped me so far maybe it’ll help you
(Nov 08-18:54) Jenny: she talks about her marriages in the Bill Moyers interview, too
(Nov 08-18:54) whollyyoga: another interesting one is Jesus in the Lotus
(Nov 08-18:54) IntegralHack: I appreciate that she is so open in discussing it.
(Nov 08-18:54) Kris: When did she become a nun?
(Nov 08-18:54) Donna_Freeman: Expressing your vulnerabilities, seeing them for what they are, and sharing them is a powerful way to communciate
(Nov 08-18:55) bob: 1974 I’ve got the Wiki up here
(Nov 08-18:55) Jenny: Matt, i do too
(Nov 08-18:56) bob: I agree, Donna.  That’s a large part of her appeal.  She really is an example of transcending the ego, I think.
(Nov 08-18:56) Kris: Sorry for my ignorance – can a woman in this tradition become a monk or is that a masculine equivalant to nun
(Nov 08-18:56) nancy: very true Donna… my fav yoga teacher is very good at doing the same thing and i think that’ s what makes her so ecellent
(Nov 08-18:56) nancy: kris… she’s a b
(Nov 08-18:56) nancy: Buddhist nu
(Nov 08-18:56) nancy: nun
(Nov 08-18:56) Jenny: yeah i think monk =  man, nun =  woman
(Nov 08-18:56) nancy: OMG  i’m having a lightning pinkie tonight that keeps returning on me before i’m ready
(Nov 08-18:57) Kris: That’s what I guessed – that they were the same, just gender different
(Nov 08-18:57) nancy: I was actually surprised there were women in the TIbetan Buddhist tradition who could have such influence b/c it seems like you only see men
(Nov 08-18:58) IntegralHack: I think they are the more close to equality recently, but not so much in the past.
(Nov 08-18:58) Jenny: yeah that was my thinking, matt
(Nov 08-18:58) nancy: Matt.. you have a good Tibetan Buddhism book you can recommend to us ?
(Nov 08-18:59) nancy: i like the person specific stuff… but maybe a review of the history/present might be helpful.
(Nov 08-18:59) IntegralHack: There are so many. Thurman, (Uma’s dad) has several. D. Lama . . .
(Nov 08-18:59) Kris: The Dalai Lama was here a year and a half ago and I was able to attend a few panes and talks by him.  Lucky me!
(Nov 08-18:59) Donna_Freeman: I know while traveling in Asia there were always monks at the temples but rarely nuns. A few had nuns but their roles/jobs were significantly different
(Nov 08-18:59) bob: Pema is herself the heart of Tibetan Buddhism,.
(Nov 08-18:59) Jenny: kia and her husband just saw the Dalai Lama not too long ago
(Nov 08-18:59) IntegralHack: True. I also like Surya Das.
(Nov 08-18:59) Kris: When he was here, there were nuns raising money for Tibetian issues
(Nov 08-19:00) Jenny: is tibetan = shambala?
(Nov 08-19:00) Jenny: i thought TNH was tibetan where Pema was Shambala tradition
(Nov 08-19:00) IntegralHack: Yes, Shambhala though grew out of crazy wisdom Trungpa school.
(Nov 08-19:00) Jenny: oh i see
(Nov 08-19:01) bob: Shambala is Trungpa’s organization, I believe, and he grew up as an annointed one in Tibet
(Nov 08-19:01) Kris: There are lots of different lineages of Tibetian Buddhism, right?
(Nov 08-19:02) nancy: i did after he followed me on Twitter b/c I was interested after he tweeted cool things
(Nov 08-19:02) Donna_Freeman: Must admit that most of the Buddhist differences I’ve seen are more cultural differences – ie: Japanese Buddhism vs Thai Buddhism. I know there are many different traditions but don’t know enough to distinquish …. yet
(Nov 08-19:02) nancy: all the goodies, huh matt??
(Nov 08-19:03) nancy: http://www.shambhala.org/about_shambhala.php
(Nov 08-19:03) nancy: Tibetan route… grew out of that
(Nov 08-19:03) bob: I think spiritual leaders are in a different class that politicians when it comes to extracurricular unethical behavior, don’t you?
(Nov 08-19:03) Donna_Freeman: Definitely!
(Nov 08-19:04) IntegralHack: I agree, Bob. Joking about Clinton.
(Nov 08-19:04) Jenny: i was really interested in visiting the Shambala center in Denver but i didn’t have a chance to get there. we should see what any of those folks know about it the next time they’re int he chat or else, i’ll report back in february.
(Nov 08-19:04) whollyyoga: but in US we tend to want our politicians to be spiritualleaders as well
(Nov 08-19:04) Kris: Either way, thier failings disappoint so many
(Nov 08-19:04) bob: In my opinion a spiritual leader’s ethics and morality ARE a clear part of his or her job.
(Nov 08-19:04) Donna_Freeman: or at least tohave morals
(Nov 08-19:05) nancy: ah yes, but so many of you wouldn’t want spiritual leaders/gurus so perhaps this is a mute point?
(Nov 08-19:05) bob: True, Kris.   Both do, I agree
(Nov 08-19:05) Donna_Freeman: Exactly, Bob, how are they to advise us on spiritually if they are not strong ethically and morally
(Nov 08-19:05) Jenny: i agree nancy
(Nov 08-19:05) Kris: Bob – what was that book that you and Angela were reading (I found it online for free) about the failings of gurus and scandalous stories?
(Nov 08-19:06) bob: http://www.strippingthegurus.com
(Nov 08-19:06) bob: Very good and convincing book, if one wants to know the truth about some of these (mostly) guys
(Nov 08-19:06) Kris: Yes – just found my pdf – along this line, too
(Nov 08-19:07) Donna_Freeman: Of course we must understand that they are human, perfection is too much to ask, even if they have much to teach and wisdom to impart
(Nov 08-19:07) bob: The whole book is online, or you can get a hardcopy
(Nov 08-19:07) Jenny: wholeheartedly agree, donna
(Nov 08-19:07) whollyyoga: bob if the advise from a place of perfection then that is a problem but I think we place too much emphasis on that almost idolizing spiritual leaders
(Nov 08-19:08) Jenny: yes andre, concur
(Nov 08-19:08) bob: No one said anything about perfection or normal human failings.  Just that there has to a line SOMEWHERE
(Nov 08-19:08) whollyyoga: MLK was a great spiritual leader no question about it but he had flaws just like the rest of he was not perfect does that discount what he did spiritually not really
(Nov 08-19:08) Kris: Hard to think of those that did not have failings…
(Nov 08-19:09) bob: A line past which we lose respect for the person, but not the teaching or the writings necessarily
(Nov 08-19:09) nancy: crap matt can’t find it now… will look later and DM you if i can
(Nov 08-19:09) IntegralHack: No problem.
(Nov 08-19:09) Donna_Freeman: I think that as the leaders/gurus show us their vulnerabilities, and display that willingness to learn from their mistake, they become stronger as leaders – just as Pema’s writings resonate with us
(Nov 08-19:10) whollyyoga: bob I hear ya but many people don’t have such a measured view on the subject
(Nov 08-19:10) bob: Stripping the Gurus is about criminals, abuses, thieves, and failed human beings, not about some endearing little human failings.
(Nov 08-19:11) whollyyoga: Donna that is is it do they learn from the k=mistakes and admit thier flaws or try to hide them and project perfection that is what i could not accept
(Nov 08-19:11) IntegralHack: Yeah, there is a big difference.
(Nov 08-19:11) Kris: I guess I can connect more to a teacher who’s failings are in the past and have become a lesson, than those who continue to let us down
(Nov 08-19:11) Donna_Freeman: Yes, you’ll always find those willing to take all they can and abuse power
(Nov 08-19:11) bob: How would you feel if Pema made a mockery of all her teachings in the way she conducted her own life?
(Nov 08-19:12) bob: And was getting worse not better?
(Nov 08-19:12) Donna_Freeman: Yes, hypocracy is the worst way to live
(Nov 08-19:12) nancy: Matt I can’t find it… maybe I read it wrong.. it was a long time ago that I did.
(Nov 08-19:12) nancy: hmm…
(Nov 08-19:12) Kris: That would not work for me
(Nov 08-19:12) whollyyoga: don’t know the book(Nov 08-19:13) whollyyoga: bob if she pretended she was something she was not that is what would be hard
(Nov 08-19:13) Donna_Freeman: And isn’t that what yoga is really all about – learning who you are, accepting who you are, being your best self
(Nov 08-19:13) IntegralHack: No problem, Nancy. Nowadays you can almost assume there is some controversy or misdoing. I think skepticism re: any teacher/guru is healthy.
(Nov 08-19:13) whollyyoga: donna yep that is my view anyway connecting to our true selves
(Nov 08-19:13) bob: There are still many who are beyond reproach and models for us all.
(Nov 08-19:13) nancy: Donna again I think this is why Pema’s approach really works in a yogic setting
(Nov 08-19:14) Kris: Agreed Donna
(Nov 08-19:14) nancy: yes.  Matt.. perhaps I read it wrong?  I’m almost sure I didn’t but will keep poking around.
(Nov 08-19:14) Kris: Bob – name names
(Nov 08-19:14) bob: I have no reason to think Pema isn’t one of those bright lights.
(Nov 08-19:14) whollyyoga: integralhack skeptism is a good thing in that regard don’t put people up  on a pedastal and they won’t fall far when they do fall
(Nov 08-19:14) Donna_Freeman: Kris, are you looking for a hero?
(Nov 08-19:15) Jenny: again, it may be best to shift away from the guru talk, i think, folks…
(Nov 08-19:15) Kris: Just want to acknoledge those who walk the talk
(Nov 08-19:15) Donna_Freeman: True – they should be acknowledged
(Nov 08-19:15) Jenny: and return the focus to the message, about which we’re reading
(Nov 08-19:15) IntegralHack: I do think that the person eventually needs to decide what the “best self” is. If my best self is only being a functional alcoholic rather than a drunk, then you need to do some work.
(Nov 08-19:15) nancy: I have to say that although Pema has a guru of sorts I think that she really is actually talking about what is best for the self, again yogic
(Nov 08-19:15) Donna_Freeman: lol
(Nov 08-19:16) Jenny: i agree nancy
(Nov 08-19:16) bob: Stephen Cope, Rod Stryker, the Dalai Lama.  Most of the people at Kripalu, I think
(Nov 08-19:16) nancy: she acknowledges her teachers, but isn’t suggesting that she teach us, just sharing what she has learned and
(Nov 08-19:16) Jenny: and what she talks about accepting is our own judgments and harshness towards ourselves
(Nov 08-19:16) nancy: exactly
(Nov 08-19:16) Donna_Freeman: I think we all have people we admire, who have influences our lives, but in the end we must find our own way
(Nov 08-19:16) nancy: bob what is that list exactly?
(Nov 08-19:17) nancy: i think i missed something while i was searching for scandal.  LOL
(Nov 08-19:17) Kris: Although Kripalu suffered with controversy, too.  Back to the book now, I agree
(Nov 08-19:17) bob: Kris asked for names of a few famous teachers who apparently are living their teachings
(Nov 08-19:18) nancy: i see
(Nov 08-19:18) Donna_Freeman: I love her idea of gentleness – I don’t think we are gentle enough with ourselves
(Nov 08-19:18) IntegralHack: I experienced all my controversies in my 20s. Sowing wild oats we called ’em back then.
(Nov 08-19:18) nancy: i agree Donna… she’s very much teaching us to accept who we are and that who we are is right
(Nov 08-19:18) Kris: So true – we are our greatest critics instead of our greatest fans all too often
(Nov 08-19:18) IntegralHack: Now I’m just off-topic.
(Nov 08-19:18) nancy: warts and all.. or wild oats and all as it were 😉
(Nov 08-19:18) Jenny: it’s true kris. and i loved how often she  talked about “befriending” who we are in this moment
(Nov 08-19:19) Jenny: instead of working to change it, and thus swimming against the current
(Nov 08-19:19) bob: Right, and they ejected the very founder of Kripalu, Amrit Desai, over his womanizing outside his marriage and being hypocritical about it.
(Nov 08-19:19) Kris: Yes – took the needed action rather than hide it
(Nov 08-19:20) whollyyoga: agreed Donna
(Nov 08-19:20) Jenny: Nancy- should we start taking care of some of the housekeeping before too long?
(Nov 08-19:20) nancy: sure
(Nov 08-19:21) bob: Kripalu is a good example of how to handle a massive breach of ethics by the guru/founder himself–they booted him out of his own ashram. (All in Cope’s “Quest” by the way.)
(Nov 08-19:21) IntegralHack: housekeeping? I didn’t sign up for that!
(Nov 08-19:21) Kris: I actually found chapter 3 the least interesting (with all the talk of the scandals) – like the others better
(Nov 08-19:21) Donna_Freeman: It takes a lot of courage to accept your faults and understand that you are not a terrible person because of them, to recognize your failings, weaknesses, and try to improve upon them a day at a time
(Nov 08-19:21) bob: Should I get my broom
(Nov 08-19:21) nancy: yes to both donna and kris…
(Nov 08-19:21) Jenny: lol bob
(Nov 08-19:22) Jenny: absolutely agree w/ you donna
(Nov 08-19:22) nancy: jenny … do we want to pick chapters for next chat?  talk about book 5 etc?
(Nov 08-19:22) Jenny: yes i think so
(Nov 08-19:22) Kris: The chapters are really short – should we go to 10 or so?
(Nov 08-19:22) nancy: Kris that’s fine with me to go longer
(Nov 08-19:22) Jenny: i was thinking through 7, at least
(Nov 08-19:22) Jenny: but 10 sounds good
(Nov 08-19:23) nancy: bob’s already done so that should work for him
(Nov 08-19:23) nancy: 😉
(Nov 08-19:23) Jenny: hehehe
(Nov 08-19:23) Kris: I was about to say the same thing – read it in one day!
(Nov 08-19:23) bob: Right Donna.  And spirituality is best used to help that happen, as opposed to covering it all up.  Everyone has faults and big past failings to deal with.  It’s all a matter of degree and current honesty
(Nov 08-19:23) Donna_Freeman: I’ve just been reading  a chapter a day and its a pleasant way to go through the book
(Nov 08-19:24) Kris: We should get a next book planned in case it is one that has to be ordered – this one will go pretty quickly
(Nov 08-19:24) nancy: ok let’s go to 10.. we’ll see what we can get through in chat w/ o sidelines abt gurus since we’ve gotten there
(Nov 08-19:24) bob: I’d like to claim I was working ahead, but I just didn’t notice we were only going so far today!
(Nov 08-19:24) Kris: Been there done that
(Nov 08-19:24) Jenny: good plan, N
(Nov 08-19:24) Kris: Gurus that is
(Nov 08-19:25) IntegralHack: Sounds good.
(Nov 08-19:25) bob: I really do like this book, by the way.
(Nov 08-19:25) Donna_Freeman: Agreed Bob
(Nov 08-19:25) Kris: And such a change from HYP
(Nov 08-19:25) nancy: we were thinking a totally different book for the next one:  Holy Cow. By Sarah MacDonald
(Nov 08-19:26) Kris: I’ve read that – fun book
(Nov 08-19:26) nancy: a travel to India, discover spirituality one.  thoughts?
(Nov 08-19:26) IntegralHack: Haven’t read it.
(Nov 08-19:26) bob: Sounds really good to me.\
(Nov 08-19:26) nancy: It’s come highly recommended by @innerspaceyoga (Angela) who reads like a librarian: LOTS
(Nov 08-19:26) Kris: I liked it better than Enlighten Up – similar books.  Bought it from the cover alone
(Nov 08-19:26) IntegralHack: But sounds cool.
(Nov 08-19:26) Kris: Sorry – meant Enlightenment for idots – not the movie title!
(Nov 08-19:26) bob: Yes she does!
(Nov 08-19:27) Jenny: i’m thinking it’s a good choice
(Nov 08-19:27) Donna_Freeman: Great, haven’t heard of it so that’s good
(Nov 08-19:27) nancy: then after that we could return to a more traditional yogic book like by Iyengar or something.  just trying to mix it up
(Nov 08-19:27) Kris: Good idea
(Nov 08-19:27) Kris: I’ll have to reread it!
(Nov 08-19:28) IntegralHack: Gotta go, my guru is calling . . .
(Nov 08-19:28) whollyyoga: well good night folks thanks for letting me chime in without having read take care see you on the internets
(Nov 08-19:28) bob: As long as we’re on the subject of Buddhism, there have been some very relevant exchanges in the blogosphere about it.  I’ll send the urls.
(Nov 08-19:28) nancy: thanks for coming Matt… has really been fun!
(Nov 08-19:28) Kris: It was about Aussies, too if I remember – maybe the OZ members will like that
(Nov 08-19:28) Jenny: thanks matt and andre!
(Nov 08-19:28) IntegralHack: Thanx, Bob! I’d like to see that.
(Nov 08-19:29) IntegralHack: Thanks all.
(Nov 08-19:29) Jenny: the other thing i think we wanted to talk about was a potential time change,r ight?
(Nov 08-19:29) nancy: they are now in a different time so we are working to get them on… but they had the spring forward time changes and it’s messing them up
(Nov 08-19:29) whollyyoga has left.
(Nov 08-19:29) IntegralHack has left.
(Nov 08-19:29) nancy: aussies  Jaime and Seva
(Nov 08-19:29) bob: The aussies are taking over the club.  Don’t you think we need a policy on that
(Nov 08-19:29) nancy: would anyone like the chat to be an hour later
(Nov 08-19:29) Jenny: lol bob
(Nov 08-19:29) Kris: I am on the West coast – so easy change for me if you want
(Nov 08-19:30) Donna_Freeman: Doesn’t matter for me
(Nov 08-19:30) nancy: because i think it’d be easier for them if we made it an hour later… i’m of course on the East coast so it would be going late for me
(Nov 08-19:30) Kris: Could even catch a bit on my drumming days
(Nov 08-19:30) nancy: but it would make bath time easier for me too
(Nov 08-19:30) nancy: kids bath time
(Nov 08-19:30) Jenny: it would be harder for me to do an hr later, myself just bc of my wake up calls, so it might just mean my skipping out early if that wouldn’t be a prob nancy
(Nov 08-19:31) bob: Hour later better for me, but I’m flexible
(Nov 08-19:31) Donna_Freeman: Good to know the yoga has at least helped with the flexibility
(Nov 08-19:31) nancy: ok… well why don’t we try an hour later next weeke and see how that works out
(Nov 08-19:31) bob: Good one, Donna.  I can’t even think of a rejoinder.
(Nov 08-19:32) Donna_Freeman: lol
(Nov 08-19:32) Jenny: sounds good to me, nancy
(Nov 08-19:32) nancy: is there anything else so far in the book you’d like to talk about or did we pick too little to start with and we are done?
(Nov 08-19:32) bob: I’m all excited because I just finished putting my ebook together for pdf viewing or download.
(Nov 08-19:33) Donna_Freeman: Unfortunately must run, the kids are starving and the gyoza are ready to be served
(Nov 08-19:33) nancy: we’ve covered a lot of the stuff already
(Nov 08-19:33) Kris: Seems like a good time to wrap up
(Nov 08-19:33) Jenny: yeah i think we picked too short a bit
(Nov 08-19:33) nancy: so glad you could come donna!  love your blog as you know
(Nov 08-19:33) Donna_Freeman: Looking forward to the e-book – I’ve also got one in the works – hope to have it up ASAP
(Nov 08-19:33) Donna_Freeman: Thanks for the kind words – you guys are like friends I was just waiting to meet
(Nov 08-19:33) bob: How are you doing yours, Donna?
(Nov 08-19:33) nancy: well why don’t we call it a night… say we’ll start later next week.. go up to chapter 10 and i’ll look up soeme pema info while we wait
(Nov 08-19:34) nancy: i mean during the week… not now…
(Nov 08-19:34) bob: Sounds good to me.

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